tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3266371808927804670.post3964205155897305228..comments2023-08-15T05:06:03.233-06:00Comments on The Writing Sisterhood: Moral Relativism in Fiction*The Sisterhoodhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09889577041903181315noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3266371808927804670.post-32323323589896347272012-07-29T06:04:40.999-06:002012-07-29T06:04:40.999-06:00"I heard once that morality was like grammar:..."I heard once that morality was like grammar: we are born hardwired with a tendency to acquire language with a grammar structure (called "the language instinct"), but the specifics of those structures vary from culture to culture. "<br /><br />Very interesting. I'd never heard of this before, but it makes a lot of sense. <br /><br />"Isn't it true that nuns were often girls who were shipped off to convents against their will?" <br /><br />Good point. I can see how this may be a contributing factor to why romance is more 'acceptable' for nuns in fiction. The examples I mentioned in the article were two cases where both characters wanted to be nuns, but I've seen others who didn't.Lorenahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17848249911635132594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3266371808927804670.post-38325697382259275452012-07-27T16:09:34.012-06:002012-07-27T16:09:34.012-06:00I heard once that morality was like grammar: we ar...I heard once that morality was like grammar: we are born hardwired with a tendency to acquire language with a grammar structure (called "the language instinct"), but the specifics of those structures vary from culture to culture. And grammar evolves from century to century. So it is with morals: we are all born with a moral instinct, but certain moral codes exist across cultures (the golden rule is common to virtually all cultures) and not to change with time, but there are trends which are affected by the vagaries of culture. Moral relativism, then, isn't all it's cracked up to be: it's not completely arbitrary, and it can't change on a dime.<br /><br />On the nun issue: isn't it true that nuns were often girls who were shipped off to convents against their will? When people are coerced into something, that grates against many of us. (There's the golden rule again.) So when they escape their confinement, we cheer them on. They are not breaking an internal rule, they are breaking free of oppression. Priests, on the other hand, are considered to have A Calling. They go willingly to their fates. When they break a rule they agreed to follow with full knowledge and consent, that irritates the rest of us. We see a lack of integrity: they are cheating, in a sense.Stephaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02187854108656107958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3266371808927804670.post-49970113259031181852012-07-27T08:21:54.623-06:002012-07-27T08:21:54.623-06:00Archer´s last words in the novel “Tell her I’m old...Archer´s last words in the novel “Tell her I’m old fashioned” are very telling about his adherence to old codes of behavior.<br />Last night insomnia sent me to watch the film for the eleventh time. I had always thought that Newland´s reason not to see Countess Olenska in Paris was because he wanted to keep an image of her as she was in older days, but last night I realized that he decides not to see her after he finds out his wife had known of his adulterous love all along. He was very moved by those news and perhaps he felt that even seeing Ellen again was a betrayal of his commitment to May. Re-watching The Age made me realize for the first time what a powerful character May Welland Archer is. She is stronger than her husband and Ellen, and very similar to her grandmother (Mrs. Manson Mingott is my favorite character in the whole book.)Malenahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08764070340451077376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3266371808927804670.post-22325571833355184822012-07-26T09:29:49.493-06:002012-07-26T09:29:49.493-06:00Sister Mary, I agree with you that Frank and April...Sister Mary, I agree with you that Frank and April have several other problems that escalate throughout the plot. (MORE SPOILERS) But like you say, when the abortion issue comes along, their differences become irreconcilable. My point was that their mutual infidelity never develops into a huge problem (like it does in many marriages). Frank never learns about April's fling, and she doesn't seem to care when he confesses (it just adds to her overall disillusionment with him).Lorenahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17848249911635132594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3266371808927804670.post-81868178605516288222012-07-26T09:23:18.341-06:002012-07-26T09:23:18.341-06:00"Moreover, he is a man of principle, running ..."Moreover, he is a man of principle, running away with Ellen would have gone against his principles and he could have never been happy."<br /><br />This makes a lot of sense, Malena, and after all this time, I can finally say I UNDERSTAND THE ENDING of this novel!!!Lorenahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17848249911635132594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3266371808927804670.post-78152636243059423632012-07-25T15:21:10.015-06:002012-07-25T15:21:10.015-06:00Yess. But Honour Langtry was not a nun.Yess. But Honour Langtry was not a nun.Malenahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08764070340451077376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3266371808927804670.post-66163285204416351172012-07-25T15:20:03.496-06:002012-07-25T15:20:03.496-06:00Ha! We must have both come up with it at the same ...Ha! We must have both come up with it at the same time!Mary Maryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09429769115085903305noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3266371808927804670.post-10095031771374405182012-07-25T15:18:04.526-06:002012-07-25T15:18:04.526-06:00Found it! An Indecent Obsession by Colleen McCullo...Found it! An Indecent Obsession by Colleen McCullough, the author of The Thornbirds (the film came out in 1985). In this novel, the nun engages in the affair while still a nun -- if you're looking for exceptions to the nuns' rule of leaving the order before taking up with a man.<br /><br />McCullough certainly had a thing for setting the loins of priests and nuns on fire!Mary Maryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09429769115085903305noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3266371808927804670.post-2615476659942357322012-07-25T15:15:09.853-06:002012-07-25T15:15:09.853-06:00I think you are referring to Colleen McCullough...I think you are referring to Colleen McCullough's An Indecent Obsession (there is a film too) She is the head nurse at a medical facility for combat fatigue cases (I believe is in New Guinea right after World War Two)and has an affair with one of her patients. But you also reminded me of two WWII films with nun-nurses sort of falling in love: Heaven Knows Mr. Allisson (Deborah Kerr and Robert Mitchum) and The Sea Wife (Joan Collins and Sir Richard Burton)Malenahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08764070340451077376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3266371808927804670.post-78595611277469857292012-07-25T15:05:51.189-06:002012-07-25T15:05:51.189-06:00It's interesting how you interpreted the centr...It's interesting how you interpreted the central conflict of Revolutionary Road. When I saw the film and read the novel, I didn't see the abortion as the axis of the story. I saw it as the final nail in the sham of a life April and Frank lead. They have been lying to each other for years when it comes to what both of them want, to the point that they can actually believe everything is fine and they can restart their lives in France, leaving all their problems behind them. Each wants something different but concedes defeat to the other and it's a game they've played back and forth throughout their marriage. I.e., April wants to abort the first child, Frank does not, so she keeps it. Frank hates his job, but it gives his family what they need, so he keeps doing it. For me, I saw a relationship sliding downhill right from the beginning. We just happened to join in when the story's getting good!<br /><br />On a different note, maybe somebody can help me with this one: There's a novel and a film about either WWII or the Vietnam War where a nurse (who I think is a nun) falls in love with one of her mentally ill patients, who is a soldier scarred from the war. They end up having a torrid affair and I think there is murder involved. Does anyone know the name of this book or the author?Mary Maryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09429769115085903305noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3266371808927804670.post-17764650422696947802012-07-25T08:51:10.021-06:002012-07-25T08:51:10.021-06:00About The Age of Innocence
Tobias is right, social...About The Age of Innocence<br />Tobias is right, social mores would require punishment for the immoral just as the Hays Code, which ruled Hollywood until the 60’s, demanded that in films no sin should go unpunished; no wicked character should be rewarded. However, in Wharton’s case the author´s ethics plays a more important part in its unhappy ending than social demands do.<br /><br /> Divorce was common in America in 1920 when the novel was published, and was legal at the time the story takes place (late 1870’s). Newland tells as much to Ellen Olenska: “Our legislation favors divorce, our society don’t.”<br /><br />The Age of Innocence is a nostalgic longing for the past, not a condemnation of a closed stern society. Wharton identifies with Newland more than with free-spirited Madame Olenska. Although he sees through the hypocrisy of his milieu and clashes with some obsolete rules, he embraces his society and I don´t think he could have been happy living in its fringes. Moreover, he is a man of principle, running away with Ellen would have gone against his principles and he could have never been happy.Malenahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08764070340451077376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3266371808927804670.post-38585948811578797342012-07-25T07:38:11.545-06:002012-07-25T07:38:11.545-06:00Let´s see
Sister Clara in Monsignor, just suffers ...Let´s see<br />Sister Clara in Monsignor, just suffers moral pain when she learns she is sleeping with a priest (Father Flaherty kept that fact from her when he seduced her.<br />Mariana de Leyva, the real Monaca di Monza was walled alive in her cell.<br />Sister San Sulpicio never broke her vows; she left the convent just like Maria in The Sound of Music with the congregation’s blessing (and a Papal dispensation).<br />Sister Ottavia has developed such contempt for the Church that simply goes away with her Egyptian. She loses her job, but gains tremendous happiness.Malenahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08764070340451077376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3266371808927804670.post-45891062182479113212012-07-25T07:05:00.702-06:002012-07-25T07:05:00.702-06:00Thanks for sharing this interesting information!
...Thanks for sharing this interesting information!<br /><br />In the case of the vow-breaking nuns you mention, do they have happy endings or do they suffer the consequences of their actions? And if so, how?Lorenahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17848249911635132594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3266371808927804670.post-38383566865672601412012-07-25T06:46:41.936-06:002012-07-25T06:46:41.936-06:00Throughout history, the stigma associated with cou...Throughout history, the stigma associated with cousin marriage has had many faces.<br />Indeed, the eugenics movement played a crucial role in banning first cousin marriages in the USA (the only Western country that prohibits such union, and only in 30 states), but recent medical research including the definite study carried by the University of Washington (2002) proves that unless endogamy is endemic in a family (such as it would happen in closed isolated communities like the Amish, or the Old World shetls) or that there is a history of hereditary diseases, there is no reason for cousins to produce malformed offspring. I have met children afflicted by Tay-Sachs whose parents were not related<br />In the Classical world, sometimes parallel cousin marriage was banned in order to prevent large fortunes remaining in one single family. For many centuries the Catholic Church (and other Christian denominations) banned cousin marriage, but “sold” dispensations for such unions to take place.<br />Nowadays, the genetic issue is no longer used, instead a "moral” aspect has risen in the debate. There are those who think that allowing cousin marriage would be like legalizing incest. In truth, the major modern stigma against it is that it’s widely practiced by Muslims. The true motives behind England and The Low Countries recent talks of banning consanguineous marriages is to impede the growth of their Muslim (mainly Pakistani) populations. Studies have also shown there is a high fertility factor present in cousin-marriage.Malenahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08764070340451077376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3266371808927804670.post-2667842203468823672012-07-24T16:34:54.472-06:002012-07-24T16:34:54.472-06:00The re-emergence of antipathy to cousin marriage, ...The re-emergence of antipathy to cousin marriage, may be due to the spread of the knowledge of genetics in the general population, particularly in regard to the diseases such as Tay-Sachs. where each parent must be a carrier for the child to be stricken. Documentaries about hereditary disease from consanguineous couplings among isolated groups such as the Amish, and the Huntington's disease cluster in Venezuela, have made the genetic considerations more important than the moral ones. There also seems to be an innate urge in most animals to seek mates from a different gene pool—a drive which may lie deep in the subconscious of us all. A thought provoking post, Lorena,<br /> RegisAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3266371808927804670.post-35785078295243868832012-07-23T16:10:23.868-06:002012-07-23T16:10:23.868-06:00Great article and great discussion. I think you b...Great article and great discussion. I think you bring up a good point Catie, but it seems to me that it is still more taboo for a priest to give up his vows and then marry etc. <br /><br />I think that this may be because strong male characters are more likely to be viewed as predators than women. A priest by nature is going to be viewed as a strong male character and if he is tempted, hence a predator of some sort...nuns on the other hand are female subordinates to the priest, who is the leader of the parish. A nun would rarely be viewed by anybody to be predating on men. In other words not threatening at all. <br /><br />I know that in modern context this may seem very old fashioned and politically incorrect, but in the context of times before it makes sense to me. Hope all is well back home.<br /><br />Major HAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3266371808927804670.post-65914896058717472332012-07-23T12:41:24.203-06:002012-07-23T12:41:24.203-06:00Dear Lorena, you have managed to prove that politi...Dear Lorena, you have managed to prove that political correctness, just like shoes, follow fashion cycles. You can’t wear last century’s morals.<br />For example, I could create a fictional story around an interracial, interreligious or even gay romance and give it a happy ending, something unheard off in early 19th century USA. However, in that same period of time I could have written about a cousin marriage with no problem whatsoever.<br />In Victorian literature, cousin marriage was possible since its society did not frown upon it, but marrying a sister-in-law was forbidden so you could not write about it. In Hardy´s Tess of the D’Urbervilles, Tess asks her husband to marry her sister (after her execution), but he reminds her it's against the law. In Catherine Cookson’s The Wingless Bird (1964) after her husband’s death, Agnes falls for her brother-in-law. Since they are not permitted to marry, they live together for decades, have two children out of wedlock, and finally marry after the law is revoked in the late 40’s.Malenahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08764070340451077376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3266371808927804670.post-6992873280321739922012-07-23T09:55:36.992-06:002012-07-23T09:55:36.992-06:00Sister Lorena,
This is such a meaty article! I wil...Sister Lorena,<br />This is such a meaty article! I will have to answer it in sectins. Let me begin with the clerical taboo. Indeed, Catie is right; most nuns that have romances in fiction (including Don Juan Tenorio’s Ines) are novices. Even in modern novels like Jack Alain-Leger’s Monsignor, the protagonist (an American Army chaplain) has an affair with a novice, not a full nun.<br />There were loose nuns in gothic novels and Alessandro Manzoni includes a vow-breaking nun in his I Promessi Spozi (The Betrothed, 1827), but La Monaca Di Monza is based in a real nun who shocked Baroque Italy by having two babies while running a convent.<br />For positive portrayal of nuns who leave their convent after having taken their vows, I can only think of two examples, both taken from Spanish Literature. Armando Palacio Valdes’ La Hermana San Sulpicio (Sister San Suplìcio, 1889) follows her Mother Superior to take a cure at a spa. There she meets the local doctor, falls in love, gives up her habit and marries him. However, she does no lose her faith and does not break her vows. She gets a Vatican dispensation to become Gloria again.<br />In Matilde Asensi’s religious thriller El Ultimo Catón (The Last Cato, 2001) Sister Ottavia is a mid-thirties prestigious paleographer, and a full nun. She is sent by the Vatican to investigate a mysterious wave of relic thefts. She is aided in her investigation by an Egyptian Professor. After several adventures, Ottavia loses her faith and ends up in bed with the Egyptian.Malenahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08764070340451077376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3266371808927804670.post-74407002111499201332012-07-23T09:21:09.645-06:002012-07-23T09:21:09.645-06:00Dear Catie,
You make an excellent point, and one ...Dear Catie,<br /><br />You make an excellent point, and one I hadn't thought about. Yes, the nuns in the mentioned examples did not break their vows. Their relationships with their husbands-to-be were completely platonic. It would be interesting to see if there have been other nuns in fiction who actually broke their vows.<br /><br />Thanks for stopping by!Lorenahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17848249911635132594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3266371808927804670.post-36246516308289639402012-07-23T07:59:07.531-06:002012-07-23T07:59:07.531-06:00Lorena, I loved reading this post! That was a lot...Lorena, I loved reading this post! That was a lot to think about that I hadn't considered. <br /><br />I had one thought to add to the discussion on the double standard of priests and nuns in love. In the two examples you gave of priests, both of those priests broke their vows while they were still priests. Whereas, I think the examples of the nuns did not include them actually breaking their vows. Did the nuns leave their orders and surrender their title of nun before actually marrying their loves (whereas the priests just had affairs and fathered children with their loves). <br /><br />I am not familar with the examples, so I could be wrong (I don't know if the nuns DID in fact break their vows before leaving their oders). But, from what I can see the sins of the priests do in fact seem much worse just because they had affairs and were living double lives, decieving their parishioners. Whereas the nuns at least gave up their nunhood (not sure that's a word haha) so that didn't have to live a lie. Could that explain the double standard?Catiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02704044699577638121noreply@blogger.com