tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3266371808927804670.post153133831560483951..comments2023-08-15T05:06:03.233-06:00Comments on The Writing Sisterhood: Nothing New under the Sun: Plagiarism, Literary Cloning or Inmortal Formulas?The Sisterhoodhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09889577041903181315noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3266371808927804670.post-59071205518819939932011-11-13T04:59:11.619-07:002011-11-13T04:59:11.619-07:00Formula is inexorably tied to genre, and film and ...Formula is inexorably tied to genre, and film and television works only with genre, so there you have it! But that shouldn´t leae out the possibility of just one tiny touch of novelty.Violantehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02800111423488923625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3266371808927804670.post-74743658095566972432011-11-12T23:53:12.884-07:002011-11-12T23:53:12.884-07:00I have noticed this more in movies than in books, ...I have noticed this more in movies than in books, and this is because I will get sucked into watching anything on cable, but I read more by recommendation and author reputation than by genre. But I have no doubt that you are correct.Missed Periodshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10343265071637032284noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3266371808927804670.post-47310252049669106682011-11-08T18:03:35.778-07:002011-11-08T18:03:35.778-07:00Sister Lorena,
As I was writing the post, I kept ...Sister Lorena,<br />As I was writing the post, I kept n thinking how many definitions hide under the “Formula” umbrella. Some, as you said, are quite legitimate. Others are just writer’s ruses to weasel out of the problem of how to sell their novel.<br />What I find more pathetic is the self-plagiarism issue. We see it on telenovelas all the time. But pitiful is the writer who cannot tell he just writes the same novel all the time, just because there are no fresh ideas sprouting in his brain.<br />About the Corin Tellado factory line novels, I can visualize her drafting a plot template and just leaving it there in her PC for her secretaries to fill in the blanks.<br />As I said before, Stephen King’s novels share certain quirks and common elements, but he always comes out with something that makes them different. <br />Well, remakes are a different thing. I happen to like them when they are artfully made. A remake is not plagiarism but a retelling of a beloved story.Violantehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02800111423488923625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3266371808927804670.post-49007083328576230332011-11-08T17:58:34.652-07:002011-11-08T17:58:34.652-07:00Sister Stephanie thanks for showing us how bogus t...Sister Stephanie thanks for showing us how bogus this plagiarism thing is. What I find repellent is the industry's encouragement to plagiarize. A writer knows he can get through the loophole as long as his MS is very close in plot to the latest bestseller. Agents do it too when they tell their potential clients "please let us know if your book is similar to XXX (the latest bestseller)" and they sell it as such "This is the next "The Help" or” he writes like a young Nicholas Sparks"Violantehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02800111423488923625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3266371808927804670.post-21428475040531010912011-11-08T10:18:30.089-07:002011-11-08T10:18:30.089-07:00"When something sells, there will always be s..."When something sells, there will always be someone else who wants to profit by offering something that is very similar. It's just something we have to accept." I think you're right on the nose here, Lorena.<br /><br />But regarding plagiarism specifically: I was trying to remember what legal plagiarism is, and finally just went to Wikipedia. Their entry is interesting: <br /><br />"Plagiarism is defined in dictionaries as the 'wrongful appropriation,' 'close imitation,' or 'purloining and publication' of another author's 'language, thoughts, ideas, or expressions,' and the representation of them as one's own original work, but the notion remains problematic with nebulous boundaries. <br /><br />"The modern concept of plagiarism as immoral and originality as an ideal emerged in Europe only in the 18th century, particularly with the Romantic movement, while in the previous centuries authors and artists were encouraged to 'copy the masters as closely as possible' and avoid 'unnecessary invention.' The 18th century new morals have been institutionalized and enforced prominently in the sectors of academia and journalism, where plagiarism is now considered academic dishonesty and a breach of journalistic ethics, subject to sanctions like expulsion and other severe career damage. <br /><br />"Not so in the arts, which not only have resisted in their long-established tradition of copying as a fundamental practice of the creative process, but with the boom of the modernist and postmodern movements in the 20th century, this practice has been heightened as the central and representative artistic device. Plagiarism remains tolerated by 21st century artists.<br /><br />"Plagiarism is not a crime per se but is disapproved more on the grounds of moral offence, and cases of plagiarism can involve liability for copyright infringement." <br /><br />Gosh. Nebulous, indeed!Stephaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02187854108656107958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3266371808927804670.post-10352538887608915932011-11-07T21:53:46.439-07:002011-11-07T21:53:46.439-07:00I heard somewhere that when Corin Tellado got olde...I heard somewhere that when Corin Tellado got older, she had secretaries who wrote those novellas (or short stories) featured in Vanidades for her. I've heard the same of Sydney Sheldon, but I think he at least gave his assistant(s) an outline of the story or the main character's design. I remember reading Corin Tellado's stories in fifth grade. (At the time I liked them so much that my best friend and I wrote our own story to send to the same magazine, back when we didn't even know how to type!). Past that stage, I strongly disliked her stories, especially the endings!! (The couple always ended up sitting around the fireplace with their 5 (or more) kids!)Lorenahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17848249911635132594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3266371808927804670.post-81142626979328115062011-11-07T21:50:48.125-07:002011-11-07T21:50:48.125-07:00I think when we say "formula" we mean a ...I think when we say "formula" we mean a few different things: <br /><br />1. The particular elements of a genre. For example in romance, the dual narration of hero and heroine, the focus on the relationship over any other subject, the happy ending. Or in a mystery, the dead body on chapter one and the detective/investigator/old lady who must solve the crime.<br /><br />2. The methodology of storytelling such as the hero's journey or the three-act-structure, which have been applied to tons of stories throughout the centuries. <br /><br />3. The repetition of the same exact elements of a successful book or series (such as the teenage vampires in Twilight or the wizard school in Harry Potter) or the use of a very similar book cover, like the examples Violante gave us. <br /><br />I think the first two are valid because they only conform the blueprint of a story, but the particulars belong to each author. The third one is, IMO, a mild form of plagiarism (not one that is illegal, but unethical). However, like Violante says, it's going to continue to happen, just like with ANY other product in the market that proves successful (cell phones, computers, sodas, clothes). When something sells, there will always be someone else who wants to profit by offering something that is very similar. It's just something we have to accept. As an author, however, I would HATE to be the one who has a book that looks exactly like Twilight or Harry Potter. I wonder how much say the authors of these "clones" have on their book covers and whether or not they care (probably not since they wrote such a similar story in the first place.)<br /><br />Where do you think movie/novela remakes fit in this equation?Lorenahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17848249911635132594noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3266371808927804670.post-3794402505690362362011-11-07T20:10:02.920-07:002011-11-07T20:10:02.920-07:00Sister Mary, Mary,
let´s not be too hard on poor v...Sister Mary, Mary,<br />let´s not be too hard on poor vampires. Some vampiric literature is quite original, but I resent paranomal romances that seem to find their inspration not in Gothic Lit, but bodice-rippers. Tey even have Fabio clones on the cover Ugggh!<br />I would say that drifting away from modern ideologies, current sensibilities and political correctness may offer a path to originality, but it´s dangerous. I am now exploring a new genre, historical thrillers. So far, my reading proves enjoyable. Everything seems new there, but I am counting the minutes to stumble upon some dissappointing trait.Violantehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02800111423488923625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3266371808927804670.post-2691206866918139732011-11-07T20:01:09.326-07:002011-11-07T20:01:09.326-07:00Hi Nodgene, would you say then that a well-read au...Hi Nodgene, would you say then that a well-read author would not fall into the formula trap?Violantehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02800111423488923625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3266371808927804670.post-62419478412494816142011-11-07T17:12:22.021-07:002011-11-07T17:12:22.021-07:00Vampires! Ugh! If I never see another vampire nove...Vampires! Ugh! If I never see another vampire novel again, it will not be too soon!<br /><br />For me, formula gets old, fast. I have a hard time staying interested in a writer if all they do is write about the same characters in book after book after book.<br /><br />And you bring up a good point. Does plagiarism even exist anymore? I have a hard time believing it does. Every plot line seems to have been rehashed time and time again. It's incredibly hard to find anything fresh unless it's in nonfiction pertaining to a person or event that has never been written about. Found any of those lately? Probably not. I must say, though, that I love to see where the roots of genres come from and how they've gotten off course when it comes to formula.Mary Maryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09429769115085903305noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3266371808927804670.post-57750966210176277132011-11-07T16:59:53.940-07:002011-11-07T16:59:53.940-07:00It helps, in breaking tropes, when one sets out to...It helps, in breaking tropes, when one sets out to do this, and is informed by a different swathe of influences than the usual genre author. I write fantasy, but hardly read the sort (shock horror, yes I know). I tend to read sparingly, and then often; history books and watch documentaries of all sorts of things, history, religion, politics.nodgenehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02548749875532702764noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3266371808927804670.post-46523657239921071862011-11-07T16:35:08.189-07:002011-11-07T16:35:08.189-07:00Don’t apologize. You got me thinking. As a child I...Don’t apologize. You got me thinking. As a child I used to have my book collection divided by series. Those in pink covers were all Louisa May Alcott’s, yellow were this Spanish take off on British schoolgirls adventure series. Next to them were my Dad’s childhood books that I inherited, and they were also divided by color. Now I realize (Simone De Beauvoir speaks in her memoirs about a “Bibliotheque Rose” series of children stories centered around a family or a girl character that bonded the series together), that children’s lit consisted in series of stories, all formulaic to the max (and rottenly didactic). What we have now is adult standard stories that do not even have the excuse of being part of a series (in fact modern adult series try to be assorted in their subject matters)Violantehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02800111423488923625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3266371808927804670.post-33736506604612734502011-11-07T16:11:25.052-07:002011-11-07T16:11:25.052-07:00Pardon me for dragging this out. Wikipedia says th...Pardon me for dragging this out. Wikipedia says that Leo Edwards wrote over forty novels in 7 series for young boys between 1922 and 1940. Here's one series.<br />Poppy Ott and the Stuttering Parrot - 1926<br />Poppy Ott's Seven-League Stilts - 1926<br />Poppy Ott and the Galloping Snail - 1927<br />Poppy Ott's Pedigreed Pickles - 1927<br />Poppy Ott and the Freckled Goldfish - 1928<br />Poppy Ott and the Tittering Totem - 1929<br />Poppy Ott and the Prancing Pancake - 1930<br />Poppy Ott Hits The Trail - 1933<br /><br />Note the catchy titles. "Formula" writing can be profitable! RegisAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3266371808927804670.post-29727525193332439202011-11-07T12:17:09.235-07:002011-11-07T12:17:09.235-07:00Regis, your books reminds me of Horatio Alger, the...Regis, your books reminds me of Horatio Alger, the champion of all cliché formulas. Juvenile lit. of old was notorious for being simplistic and trite. It´s why those children’s book that have survived the passing of time, are only the best. But you see? Even as a 10-year old you could tell what made them boring. A good reader will always demand a more challenging reading material.Violantehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02800111423488923625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3266371808927804670.post-86532021507876321252011-11-07T10:43:09.955-07:002011-11-07T10:43:09.955-07:00Violante, your interesting discussion of the Tella...Violante, your interesting discussion of the Tellado books reminded me of a series of books I read as a ten year old. I can't remember the name, but I got bored because of the repeated plot. The hero invented something marvelous, or had a great moneymaking idea. One story I remember was "Seven league stilts." He and his two friends always tried to profit in some way from the idea, but a bunch of ruffian boys from another neighborhood tried to wreck their plans, however the MC always found a way to win with great approbation from family and teachers. Girls were absent, except for a difficult but admiring sister. <br /> Thanks for an interesting blog RegisAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3266371808927804670.post-34541323587648538722011-11-07T08:50:12.768-07:002011-11-07T08:50:12.768-07:00Maggie, you mentioned Anne Rice. Although we think...Maggie, you mentioned Anne Rice. Although we think of her as a vampire writer, she explored so many different genres (including erotica) that she couldn’t help having ”copycats” all over the place. I don´t remember vampires being fashionable in her day, although she invented that vampire=good guy equation which opened all kind of new possibilities for the genre. Chelsea Quinn Yarbro was her closest imitator. But again, one thing is to be inspired by the work of others, and imitate their style while adding touches of your own genius, other is to merely and shamelessly copy an overly-tried subject.Violantehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02800111423488923625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3266371808927804670.post-53923544818968314322011-11-07T08:48:45.658-07:002011-11-07T08:48:45.658-07:00Regis you are right. Dickens had “admirers” who co...Regis you are right. Dickens had “admirers” who copied his style, but his work has survived while their writing is lost. That´s a telling sign isn’t it?<br /><br />I am so glad I don´t teach anymore, but I know students (in my country) that pride themselves in their forgery skills. And the Net aids them. And I do remember (even in graduate school) classmates who plagiarized shamelessly. Teachers knew and looked the other way.Violantehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02800111423488923625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3266371808927804670.post-854082690044772182011-11-07T08:44:52.179-07:002011-11-07T08:44:52.179-07:00Thank you Katie for commenting. Maggie and you men...Thank you Katie for commenting. Maggie and you mention the root of the problem, an audience that seeks extremely light reading. This reminds me of a Spanish lady called Corin Tellado who was famous throughout the Spanish-speaking world for her romances. They were very short, very simple stories that were exactly the same, down to the writing style. She wrote incessantly, from the Fifties until the early 90’s, her novels changed characters’ names, but included the same endings, the same structures, the same adjectives, she even cloned her own sentences! And yet she had a huge audience, Women of all classes from cooks to college girls read her novels, because they were “easy to read” and “you could read them in the train.” I used to called her followers “Tellado zombies” because they were not real fans. If you asked them they couldn’t tell you what the stories were about or why they liked the characters. <br />People like that are not real readers! And it´s unfair that the industry would grant them that much importance. You can’t let literature (even pulp fiction) be guided by the tastes of those who have no taste. I don´t mean they have poor taste; they just don’t have real preferences.<br />Now, don´t get me wrong , I like formula and I don´t mind reading novels that are close to one I happen to love, but what bothers me is when the cloning gets so recurrent that you find yourself reading the same sentences, the same adjectives. Funny, but you don´t find that in Stephen King, so he still has my respect.<br /> Katie you mentioned Nora Roberts. I have never touched her, because just by reading a first chapter in Amazon I can tell which way she is going. She reminds me why I gave up on Judith Krantz, Sydney Sheldon, Barbara Cartland and Victoria Holt (and her alter egos Philippa Carr and Jean Plaidy). They were good writers but they all fell prey to self-plagiarism. The same story with Danielle Steele, but I have only liked one Steele novel (Echoes).Its plot was so original, it trapped me, but her writing was sloppy, because if you keep retelling a story using the same stylistic elements, you’ll never grow as a writer.Violantehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02800111423488923625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3266371808927804670.post-87070568322271609652011-11-07T00:08:50.260-07:002011-11-07T00:08:50.260-07:00Wonderful post! I agree - but if people didn't...Wonderful post! I agree - but if people didn't want to read/see these things, there wouldn't be a market...and there continues to be one.<br /><br />And vampires are just kind of "modernized". I remember when all the Anne Rice stuff was in full swing, but I don't remember if there were "copycats" of her work.Maggie Asfahani Hajjhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15250678324642063148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3266371808927804670.post-8967198705645664502011-11-06T21:59:51.011-07:002011-11-06T21:59:51.011-07:00When someone told George Bernard Shaw that he was ...When someone told George Bernard Shaw that he was being plagiarized, he is reported to have said, "Good, it's the sincerest form of flattery" I tried to look up the exact words on Google. What I found were dozens of sites, claiming the could supply essays on all of GBS's works, guaranteed to be disguised enough to avoid plagiarism. What a sad comment on our educational institutions! Apparently all that students want is the degree. Learning anything is secondary. But without some letters after your name, you can't move up. There's no back door, as there was 75 years ago.<br /> I have used Grammarly. com and received some good corrective help, but I have heard that many of the users, are teachers,looking for plagiarism in student's papers. Is this true? Comments?<br /> 'Cloning and 'Novel factories' have been profitable ever since Dickens' time. RegisAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3266371808927804670.post-60660096866914381762011-11-06T19:20:48.863-07:002011-11-06T19:20:48.863-07:00Thank you for this interesting post. I couldn'...Thank you for this interesting post. I couldn't agree more. I enjoyed Baldachi for a quick read, then moved on, too much hacked-out stuff. My eyes cross when I see Nora Roberts and so on. I have a friend who wants a book with big print, a simple plot and plain sentences - "So I don't have to think," she said. So, the beat goes on - !Kittie Howardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07756250649095903317noreply@blogger.com